Lords of Creation Open Source

[TheTallestDwarf]

Which is not hard, but it brings a firmer thing to ask.

Is this in a D&D based system, of the 6 stats (Str through Cha), with the rolls, the concepts, and the fantasy, or is it something other entirely?

(If it's Dnd, just use D. and Demigods >.>)

[Alexander Tau]

What I would like to ask about here is some basics. Perhaps these things were discussed but never put into the actual Rules but they need to be stated.

What is the point of the Game?
Can you Win?
Can you enter into Conflict with other Gods?
Where is the Tech Tree?
Does every new Race start as primatives?

What I see right now is some nice mechanics but no context. If the answer to the second or third one is Yes then there is a whole bunch of Rules missing. And it seems to me that there needs to be at least a basic Tech Tree to define the various concepts. If every Race has to start in mud huts then that Tree is going to be pretty big.

I do like the idea and it does have a lot of potential. I actually see 2 very different games here. The one is the one that was played. But I was thinking that this could be made into a much Grander game.

What I was thinking was what if in addition to these Rules you have the possibiilty of recruiting Players to support your efforts? Basically each person that maintains a Persona linked to your God would generate points. As long as the Player stays active the points continue.

When each God Player creates their Plane of Existance they also create a Forum Thread. Any other Players they recruit post in that Thead. This would be a major change to the way the game was played because Gods would have to consider their potential followers when they are creating themselves.

Simple Version: Players only have to post once every 3 days (to eat basically) to provide points to their God. Any actual RP is just extra.

Better Version: Total text inside each God's thread is tracked and that is the basis for the power that flows. Get a few people doing some real RP and you can make a lot. To make this work the God would have to have some GM skills and use those to create RP situations that others will want to participate in.



A.T
(-)

[Zanatos]

I like the idea of a tech tree. A hardlined flow of technology.

/me goes to find the Civ 4 tech tree

[cbolttoak]

It is my intention to play and/or GM this next attempt at the game.

I have posted v0.11, though nowhere near complete, I have sleep to get and will work on the rest as time permits.

Some responses and notes with my present work in mind:

- It is my intention, in the actual world-thread creation rules, to start the Astral Plane off as an empty void with nothing in the cosmos, and the Material Plane as a flat sheet of carbon silicate rock that has no defined dimensions.

- I will remove Create Concept from the list of powers, entirely, as well as a few other powers that at this point have no definitive rules. The idea will be shelved for future development while core gameplay features are made functional.

- The rules I will be working on takes the previous game into account, and keeps Xealot's focus in mind: No Dice, Simple Cost-Based Gameplay, and very RP-dependant. Mostly rewording the information into something more streamlined and focused on gameplay and game-testing.

- Followers will be changed to "Populace" and there will not be a population or power measurement, only "Populace Points", or PP, and how the populace can act based on how many Points they have. Some powers we had that affected Followers may be removed entirely or changed to reflect a united system between Deities, Icons, and Populace.

- Populace is going to now refer to only the worshippers of the deity in question, not the actual race that was created. That way the mechanics stay simple and focused on playing your deity moreso than your varying and complex mortal civilizations.

- I will keep a system in place for Icons (which includes Avatars, Exarches, and various other unique beings) to be Astral or Material, only able to change once per Cycle, and reward DP in this manner.

- Populace Tiers and the powers of high-PP Populaces may just be merged together into one system. Haven't gone over that part yet.

- Conflict between Deities, Icons, and Populaces will be the first real expansion to the Core Rules, but at this time, not in my plans for my rewrite. I'm focusing on the simulation backbone of the game first before designing combat. At this time, however, I would state that combat should just be a 1:1 loss ratio of DP, IP, or PP, with an aggressor and a victim.

- While I will not be implementing any statistics for Populaces, Icons, or Deities outside their Point Gaining and Spending System, I am implementing changes to the rules for creation, in which Mundane, Extraordinary, Supernatural, and Cosmic will be seperate forms of PP to have, as well as Benevolent, Malevolent, Alien, and Bestial froms of IP, to give some diversity and variation in roleplaying one's creations.

- For Deities, I'm wanting to implement the fact that all deities start off equal with little more than a "theme" telling them apart, which is their domain, and from there, they become more specialized and unique throughout the game, until they develop a "Purpose", which will make them full-fledged Epic Gods and allow them various focused benefits for chosing a purpose and playing to it. This will make sure the game keeps a dedicated audience with future rewards rather than an expectation of instant awesome. :rolleyes:

- I don't see this game system being D&D related, rules-wise, but I am using D&D as a backdrop to some game design (using D&D terms to define my creations in the first game, for example). I have pet-named the system the "Point Build and Spend Simulation Roleplaying Game", or PBS SimRPG system. The system is kid-friendly and created for and by viewers like you, so it seemed appropriate. :p

- To answer the questions AT asked:
1. Point of Game: Playground concept, a mix of random make-believe with some rules to make it more entertaining.
2. Victory Conditions: Yes, by achieving your Deity's Purpose. However, the game does not end at victory, for your pupose could be threatened by another force/deity that comes.
3. Conflict: Yes, but the system is rudimentary at best, with no actual defeat structure in place, just a loss of DP.
4. Tech Tree: There is no tech-tree, only the accrument of PP and what you roleplay that to represent.
5. Primitives: If that is how you want to portray them, yes. If you want them to have talents beyond those, you make them more than cavefolk. However, their PP remains the same, so a civilization of iron-smithing dragonkin with arcane mastery can still be overrun by a well-blessed horde of nearly mindless orcs, if they have more PP.

- I considered the formation of demi-gods as player characters myself, and would consider them much like Always-Astral Icons, which I will have more rules for in future drafts.

- Essentially, the system is designed to faciliate a focus on roleplaying, with gameplay mechanics only an entertainment factor rather than a math-matrix or logic puzzle. It's more akin to White Wolf LARPS than d20 or Shadowrun 3rd Edition (oh god the Edge rolls...)

[mythlord]

This looks good so far Cbolt, I think i have some ideas to work with now.
--------------------------This is jumping ahead into the future, but i am puting it out here---------------------------------

Giving the races stats would open up some many new changes to the game. Especially if we do the demi-god as players idea.

For new recruits that want to join the game, they could start off as a demi-god from one of the races that have been created. They could roleplay as the demi-god, having to do enough acts, spend enough dp, and gain enough PP to become a fully fledged God. That way they could get a feel of the game and learn the rules, instead of jumping in without knowing anything.

Will work on some rules (see later post for specifice, on pg 3) on my home today.

[bert]

I'll rejoin with a new deity. Are we heading to something more like a Civ game then?

There certainly does need to be more of a base - First thing DM should do is state 'the laws of physics' for the game - the unalterable cosmology and some definition of the bits up for grabs. I'd go so far as to have a pre-existing inhabitable planet with a map - though malleable by gods who wish to do such things of course.

The original published game had a players handbook (which I have a copy of) detailing a whole planet pre-stocked with various races, landmasses and nascent civilisations - do you think we need to go that far?

Independence of populations/creatures -

I don't know if any of you played the board game 'Mythology', where Greek gods played about with the fate of heroes and monsters, but some concepts might be borrowable.

The amount of DP spent should reflect how much control a deity has over a given population/ creature. If you spend lots of points you get an avatar which is unalterably yours and in direct contact with the god, it is, if you like his 'PC' on the planet. What it takes to kill an avatar is unclear, but IMO it should be possible with enough clout.

Lesser points gets you a lesser degree of control. A monster is yours until someone outbids you in, but if you made the monster you always get bonus.

Bottom of the heap are the rank and file mortals, you make 'em cheap, but the little wretches have minds of their own and can easily be swayed by another deity willing to shower them with more gifts and blessings than you do. GM will have to decide what actual effect roleplaying various attempts to sway populations and mess with their heads will have. in terms of game mechanics.

Concepts - I still like the idea (maybe I just want to say 'Let There be Light, an lo there was light), but there needs to be lot of thrashing out of rules.

[Xealot]

I think instead of having just one PP, that the Populous' power should be something like:

{Populous Size (PS) + Technological Advancements (TA)}/2 = Populous Points (PP)


When a god decides to Bless a population. he now is able to apply TWO points into, PS or TA or one to each. This represents either bestowing new technology such as teaching them how to build catapults or how to dabble in the arcane arts, or it could represent raising their average life expectancy from 55 to 65, or it could be a make a once nearly uninhabitable swampland into a rich and fertile delta for crops.

This would help explain why the horde of mindless orcs could overrun the iron-smithing dragonkin with arcane mastery.

Here is an example:

Dragonkin:
PS 3 +TA 7 = PP 5

Orcs:
PS 10 +TA 2 = PP 6

The Dragonkin would put up a valiant effort, absolutely dessimating the Orcs, after days and days of laying siege however, the Orcs superior numbers allowed them to storm the walls of the Dragonkin's Keep.

To me this works better than just saying oh the Orcs are PP 6 and the Dragonkin are PP 5, so the Orcs win.

Also, keep in mind that the Dragonkin's special creature, the Mythic Red Dragon could have swooped in during the battle, spending 2CP's and swayed the battle against the Orcs. Of course Gruumsh, The God of Slaughter, seeing his Orcs about to fall in battle could send in his Exarch, to assist in battle as well as cursing the Dragonkin, dropping their PP even lower, thus allowing his Orcs to regain control. Other may not like this but I think it will help add to the RP factor of the battles and the races.

Another example could be:

Dragonkin: and Kobolds:
PS 3 +TA 7 + PS 5 +TA 1 = Total PP 8

Orcs: and Hobgoblins:
PS 10 +TA 2 + PS 4 +TA 2 = Total PP 9

So this way if a god has more than one race, he can let each race have their own advantages and differences be shown by their PS and their TA, but his entire population will have one PP.

[mythlord]

AREAS I WILL WORK IN, TO PREVENT CONFUSION FOR CBOLT!
I will work on the races, demi-gods, and possibly the actually gods stats (god stats will NOT be used in the guinea pig group:p)
I will work on combat rules and throw together some sort of tech system and possibly a knowledge system within the tech.
I like your idea for PP Xealot, so I'll add on to that to create the tech tree and race stats.

[TrueBlood]

I would definately want to help out developing the combat rules as well as any stats for anything, so just tell me if you want any help with those.

[Xealot]

Myth, let me know what help you need with the Tech Tree. Being a huge Civ 1-4 fan I have a pretty good idea of how to work it and what needs to be added. Just let me know.

[mythlord]

I'll let u guys know later today, i won't have the basics done until later

for now Tblood, design a basic system for combat and Xealot, design a basic tech tree.
I'll make additions to it later

I will work on a version also for both, and we will compare, and see what people like best

[TrueBlood]

Alright, but should we try to stat anything or just work with what we currently have?

[Xealot]

I just spend about an hour and a half trying to work out a tech tree and here are the problems I am running into.

You either make it so detailed that it would take 20+DP to have your populous into basic a basic town. (Think just to build the houses they need simple tools, mining (for metal), metalworking (for the axes), The wheel, animal husbandry (to pull the carts with trees, woodworking, construction. All of that is just to get the building up. That's not including what you would need for agriculture. Start at Hunting and Gathering, but they needs weapons to hunt, then small farms, probably need animal husbandry for carts and plowing fields, not to mention the tools an implements.

Honestly, unless you want to turn this into a Civilization type game with gods, I suggest we use the PS and TA formula I stated earlier. That way, one civilization can be more advanced than another with out having to flesh out every minor detail. Now, gods should be able to introduce new concepts or focuses I think. The god of war for instance, may show them how to mass produce high quality weapons. The good of life might show his people how to use healing magic. The god of the hunt might show his people how to supply themselves with enough food to barter to other races. The Tech Tree should be RP'd using common sense.

Now I do think that when we start out, the races can't sustain themselves without a few basic things. We should just say that when we create a race they have the ability to fend for themselves. Therefore when the gods create their lands, we should be allowed to put two animals, and two types of vegetation into the world. They should also have an understanding of how to build shelters for themselves. Now if you want your race to be able to sail across the ocean to invade others, you might want to teach them: Sailing, Navigation, Astronomy, or Compass.

As for the entire world, I think we need to establish that:

Gravity exist
Time is constant (except on the Astral)
There is a sun
All things die (whether they have a soul, go to heaven, or are reincarnated is up to the individual god)
There is limited space

Now if we really want to do a Tech Tree, I will, but we will have to rework the DP cost or sit in the dark ages forever.

[Alexander Tau]

It is a challenge to cover every aspect of a Society. And really the technology should be able to advance differently for different kinds of Races.

You might have to go more abstract than what a game like Civ uses. One possible way would be based on the equivilant to an Earthly Year. So a Race would be at a Tech Level roughly equal to Earth in Year 0.


A.T
(-)

[bert]

I
Honestly, unless you want to turn this into a Civilization type game with gods, I suggest we use the PS and TA formula I stated earlier. That way, one civilization can be more advanced than another with out having to flesh out every minor detail. Now, gods should be able to introduce new concepts or focuses I think. The god of war for instance, may show them how to mass produce high quality weapons. The good of life might show his people how to use healing magic. The god of the hunt might show his people how to supply themselves with enough food to barter to other races. The Tech Tree should be RP'd using common sense.

Now I do think that when we start out, the races can't sustain themselves without a few basic things. We should just say that when we create a race they have the ability to fend for themselves. Therefore when the gods create their lands, we should be allowed to put two animals, and two types of vegetation into the world. They should also have an understanding of how to build shelters for themselves. Now if you want your race to be able to sail across the ocean to invade others, you might want to teach them: Sailing, Navigation, Astronomy, or Compass.

No we do not want to turn this into CIV with gods, or at least I don't. Given the wide diversity of possible races make the creator of each race state the starting culture of his species - what they eat, where they live, how they get it etc. - with an arbitrary ruling that to start with we are at approximately the equivalent of about 4000BC - if people want to start races as urbanised technocrats the gods are irrelevant, they cannot add to the technology or environment of the species, they can do it all themselves. All the cultural stuff is colour information to help RPing, but the crucial info should include what environmental conditions and or resources they do best in, giving the tactical option of adapting your species to the environment as it stands and putting your self in a turf war with all the other gods trying to do the same, or spending DP making a specialist environment that will make life hard for anyone elses species except your band of hot-housed mutants.

As far as further techs go make the working assumption that mortal races are not stupid and need to be spoon fed every advance by their deity, and maintain a vague parity by dint of cultural osmosis. Then the only substantive areas of difference between the cultures of the species relevant to the game are those hard wired in at the start by the creating deity (eg the God of the Hunt creates Leonids who are carnivorous nomads and follow the social structure of the Lion pride), and those grafted on later by the creating or other interested deities, which may give varying bonuses depending on relevance (eg God of Law grants the Blessing Wisdom of the Maned One to give Leonid chiefs better judgement and higher populations, God of Trees curses them with Fear of Woods, making them creatures that can only thrive in plains, God of Crafts teaches them building, which does not affect PS or TA but creates a sub species of settled Leonids and a possible future conflict and turf war between Leonid Ranchers following him and wild nomadic tribes following the God of the Hunt.) In short the precise effects in terms of game mechanics are going to have to be the GMs call based on how well he thinks the player has justified the effects of his DP spend.

Then there is this business of species Tier in the original rules - never did quite understand what this was getting at, but it did imply that a mortal race with enough FPs evolved a more advanced culture, being able to build temples, appoint heirarchies of clergy etc.

Is this something we want to keep? I suggest that we do - when a player moves a population to tier II he then he posts a restatement of its cultural norms with a reference date of say 2000BC, the age of city states and established kingdoms, and so on with tier III and IV, and players will have to start getting more creative in how they RP their donation of divine power and how they are relevant to the mortals concerned - the God of the Hunt may decide that he doesnt want tier II and instead settles for expanding the area of turf held by his nomads and adding low level tricks and stunts like accurate shooting of arrows and pit traps as none of his possible gifts are relevant to an urbansied population, God of Crafts drags his settled Leonids into the first millenium BC and teaches them stoneworking, asking God of Law to add Kingship on top.

How high do we want the techs to go? Not too high or it becomes too implausible that the species still wants or needs a paternalistic god. God of Crafts calls it quits at the invention of the dome and Damascus steel, not suspension bridges and titanium alloy, or even space stations and force fields - or maybe this kind of anachronism would appeal to some...

Anyway, techs are Xealots allotted task, and these are just my four pennorth.

I would like to contribute to this in some way however - could I take on the task of mapping, environments and population distribution?