GM Tips, Tricks, & General Advice

[cailano]

I suppose its possible I'm highly ignorant, but my players seem to enjoy my games so I persist.

The larger point of Actana's post, aside from making inflammatory comments, seems to be that the Pathfinder / 3.5 system is broken beyond repair. My only counter would be to suggest that any rules framework is open to abuse. Heck, I used to run HERO system, which if left unchecked allows characters that would disrupt any game.

But in my mind that is just job security for we game masters. If your players find an exploit in the game that enhances their enjoyment of said game without wrecking it for anyone else, I say allow it. If its an exploit that makes the game less - at least for your group - then make a ruling. I talk about this issue elsewhere on this thread. I have several spells that many would consider a standard part of the game that I simply don't allow. So far I haven't had a lot of problems with stoneshape
but if I do in the future I'll be sure to deal with it then.

Actana also brought up the issue with CR rating. I agree with him that it depends on the group and their equipment. For instance a group of undead may effectively be of lower CR vs. a group with a powerful cleric. Conversely, a werewolf (CR 2) might be a nearly impossible fight for a group without silver weapons or spell casters. It is a guideline - and I think a useful one - but only a guideline. A thinking GM is always required when plotting encounters. It is this flexible, human element that I believe makes table top RPGs more fun than a fixed game type such as a video game.

As to munchkins, I will stand by my original post, drawing attention to the part where I said it is up to the GM to decide where the line is between solid character build and munchkinism. Maybe I have thick-skinned players, but enforcing this policy has never seemed to offend anyone before.

[_Hahn]

I think that, at least to a degree, Actana and Cailano are on the same page here. Optimizing a character isn't 'munchkinism', exploiting the mechanics of the game to an extreme level is.

Claiming that balance problems with the game are symptoms of munchkins (and that any semi-decent optimization is munchkinism) is both highly ignorant, and offensive to those who enjoy the more mechanical aspects of the game.

Key word here, in my humble opinion, is in bold. Semi-decent optimization is far from what Cailano is saying...or at least from what I am reading. See these quotes below

They are called munchkins because their play style is most often seen in younger gamers. My advice is to disallow them at your table. They don't really add anything to the play experience, and they tend to annoy the other players (not to mention you, the game master.) It's up to the game master to decide where the line falls between a solid character build and foray into munchkinland.

But in my mind that is just job security for we game masters. If your players find an exploit in the game that enhances their enjoyment of said game without wrecking it for anyone else, I say allow it. If its an exploit that makes the game less - at least for your group - then make a ruling. I talk about this issue elsewhere on this thread.

...

As to munchkins, I will stand by my original post, drawing attention to the part where I said it is up to the GM to decide where the line is between solid character build and munchkinism. Maybe I have thick-skinned players, but enforcing this policy has never seemed to offend anyone before.

This is a guide for new DM's, and there are players out there that will take advantage of a new DM (or any DM they can) and they will ruin the game for all involved if their 'munchkinism' isn't nipped in the bud. This type of player can be as detrimental to a game as any other flaw table-top gaming has, I know because I had a guy like this play with us when I learned AD&D over a decade ago (we had a much more expletive moniker for him than 'munchkin.') If you are a player that wants to, as Actana stated 'semi-decently optimize' your character you shouldn't be offended by a DM wanting to keep this kind of player out of the game, you should be grateful.

[Guest]

The main difference I was going on about is how far one must go to reach those levels. CR+7 is a terrible estimate, and shouldn't be used. It's the methods they use, not the results that determine whether or not a character is overpowered, and the attitude of the player whether they are munchkins or not. "Ruining" a game by easily defeating an encounter isn't something only munchkins do. It's what all players try to do if they have the resources available (and in 3.5 those resources aren't hard to get). A munchkin isn't only a person who can defeat encounters easily. A munchkin in a person who attempts to trivialize the entire game with malicious intent.

In other words, it's the journey not the destination.

[cailano]

At any rate, there is definitely validity to the idea that a monster getting "jumped" in a lair is at a disadvantage. It's the oldest tactic in the book, really. If faced with a dangerous opponent... ambush him and kill him before he knows he's fighting.

But that goes back to dragons being intelligent opponents, and setting up our encounter.

So let's flip this conversation around, shall we? We have talked about how our players are going to come curb stomp our beautiful monster... now let's talk about how we can make an encounter that will be one that will truly challenge our PCs, and be a memorable experience for all involved.

Ideas?

[archmagi1]

A dragon's not stupid. They may not be the smartest enemies, but their 16 INT is on par with scholars, military tacticians, and pretty much the smartest people who aren't PC's or named NPC's. And they exhibit hoarding tendencies. What they have they want to protect, not just sleep on.

A good place to start is on the dragon's hoard itself. Amongst the pretties the dragon has collected, he should have a number of items that help him. Rings of Energy resistance, Wands of Protection from Energy, Scrolls of Wind Wall, and if he's real on top of it, a rod of Quicken Spell (Lesser). Also, the dragon should collect things that deal energy damage different than his breath type. All the party has loaded up on fire resistance, but here comes the dragon, blasting a wand of Lightning Bolt or reading off a Cone of Cold scroll.

Next you want to look at traps. Dragon's have a lot of free time, so digging pits, arranging deadfalls, hiding spikes should be a routine hobby. Especially if they have a loyal army of kobold slaves. Compound challenges into a multi-trap encounter, which may or may not go off during the fight with the dragon itself, can add a dynamic element other than flyby attack after flyby attack. Red Dragon in a volcano? Oh, ignore this lava tube running through the other side of the wall that conveniently is a silent imaged fireproof plate tied to a lever at the top of the cavern. With the PC's having to worry about active lava floes filling up the battlefield, it forces them to try to move around and reduces full attacks.

Finally minions. Oh that lava floe? What's that in it? Oh some fire elementals and salamanders!

[Baron Of Hell]

First when I hear munchkin the only thing I can think about is the Lollipop Guild. Why are people singing the lollipop guild song during play?

For encounters I have been throwing out test encounters to get a feel on how the party will react before giving them a real encounter. Doing that I can better tailor a scenes for them. I also use pop culture references just for kicks. I just stole a scene from game of thrones that I think made things interesting.

[cailano]

Archmagi, a lava trap is definitely a strong idea. Red dragons are immune to fire so they could basically bathe in the stuff and not be harmed. They'd have to trigger it in a way that wouldn't damage their precious treasure.

I also like it because dragons are cruel. That could also add flavor and drama to the trap because the dragon might like something slow so he can watch the PCs suffer a while. Story wise that gives them a chance to escape, but even if they do that gives the dragon the initiative in the battle. Also gives the dragon lots of time to cast dispel magic on the PC's buffs.

What else do you guys got?

[archmagi1]

They'd have to trigger it in a way that wouldn't damage their precious treasure.

Perception DC 30: There are slight variations in elevation throughout the cavern. It seems as if the ground itself has been shaped in ways that are difficult to comprehend.
Perception DC 35: Small subtle worn down hills and valleys across the floor seem to provide the ideal avenue for fluids to flow around the floor of the cavern. Coincidentally, the large piles of coins are stashed throughout the cavern in alcoves at least 3 feet above the surface of the floor...

[cailano]

First when I hear munchkin the only thing I can think about is the Lollipop Guild. Why are people singing the lollipop guild song during play?

For encounters I have been throwing out test encounters to get a feel on how the party will react before giving them a real encounter. Doing that I can better tailor a scenes for them. I also use pop culture references just for kicks. I just stole a scene from game of thrones that I think made things interesting.

That's interesting. Are you just testing the skill level of your party or something else?

[RaistlinMC]

You missed your calling as an educator, Cai. To turn Actana's comments into a fair, teachable moment instead of a (far more common) online shouting match is impressive stuff, my friend.

[Baron Of Hell]

That's interesting. Are you just testing the skill level of your party or something else?

Different things I suppose. I wanted to see how they would react to a battle that could be fought with words rather than swords. Then another time I wanted to see what different CR encounters with the same enemy would make. One the main things I was looking for was would it be best to add more low level enemies in this case goblins or have fewer goblins but with better equipment.

[cailano]

Different things I suppose. I wanted to see how they would react to a battle that could be fought with words rather than swords. Then another time I wanted to see what different CR encounters with the same enemy would make. One the main things I was looking for was would it be best to add more low level enemies in this case goblins or have fewer goblins but with better equipment.

Very cool, I like how you're testing not only strength of encounters, but different types of encounters.

[_Hahn]

What else do you guys got?

In the DMG there is a special delineation for encounters that are 'easy if handled properly'. These are by far my favorite type of encounter, regardless of if I am playing or DM-ing. Obviously the taste of victory after a harsh encounter, where many characters nearly died, is great and memorable. What I enjoy even better is having some trick to the encounter, or letting the players figure out an ad hoc tactic to overcome the objective. This kind of victory seems to add more to the group camaraderie, and gives the group a story to share later with others. Regardless of of it's telling NPC's in game or reliving an encounter years later, there is nothing like saying, "remember when Jordan's dwarf climbed up that cliff and pushed a boulder over the side to crush that red dragon! That thing had two of us knocked out and would have killed us all if he hadn't!" Of course if the group refuses to investigate the rumors of the monster plaguing the village to find out that what it is and how to effectively fight it, or use the same tactics in every single encounter it is just a hard encounter.


I also like splitting things up for players to find, puzzle solving to get further into a dungeon or find treasure. (think the Myst series where you find a 'key' - likely not in the shape of a typical key - that unlocks something far, far away) this ncourages searching places methodically and can allow the DM to have players reroute through an area a couple of times.

[Guest]

You missed your calling as an educator, Cai. To turn Actana's comments into a fair, teachable moment instead of a (far more common) online shouting match is impressive stuff, my friend.

I most certainly agree with this Ra... well played Cailano, well played.

Also, archmagi, I love the lava flow trap. Great stuff you guys!

[cailano]

I most certainly agree with this Ra... well played Cailano, well played.

Also, archmagi, I love the lava flow trap. Great stuff you guys!

Thanks, guys. Since Ra actually is an educator I'll assume he doesn't pass out that compliment lightly. Still, I imagine anything I do on here is nothing compared to handling an actual classroom full of hormone ridden teenagers.